Break A Leg! Disability in the Arts
Break A Leg! Disability in the Arts
Playwriting with Adrienne Dawes
Nicole’s friend and fellow playwright Adrienne Dawes joined us for this episode to talk about writing from different perspectives and in different genres. What have these playwrights been working on? Why do we need popcorn plays? Is Austin still weird? Listen to find out!
Adrienne Dawes is a writer, producer, and teaching artist currently based in Fayetteville, AR. Adrienne's play Casta, inspired by a series of paintings by Miguel Cabrera, is planned to premiere next fall in Austin, TX with Salvage Vanguard Theater.
Find Adrienne online!
Website: www.adriennedawes.com
Instagram: @heckleher
Twitter: @heckleher
Episode Transcript: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1751649/9116658
Produced by Scott MacDonald
Artwork by Sasha & Alexander Schwartz
https://breakalegpod.buzzsprout.com/
Welcome to Break A Leg! A podcast that explores the relationship between disability and the arts. I'm your host, Nicole Zimmerer, and on today's episode our guest is Adrienne Dawes. Adrienne is a writer, producer, and teaching artist from Fayetteville, Arkansas. Hi, Adrienne!
Adrienne Dawes:Hello!
Nicole Zimmerer:How are you?
Adrienne Dawes:I'm doing great! Thanks for having me.
Nicole Zimmerer:Thanks for being on the pod. I'm so excited for you to be here!
Adrienne Dawes:Yes! I know, I'm a big fan. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Thank you. I'm also a big fan. So the first segment that we usually do is Spilling the Disabili-Tea where we talk about historical or current events happening in the disabled community. And the Disabili-Tea we have today is that, most of our listeners know that the Olympics just happened, but what you might not know is that the Paralympics, which are games that start after the Olympics are starting on, they start on August, I think it's 24th of this year, and they go until September 5. And something that's really exciting about this year, is that it's also the first year that Paralympians and Olympians are getting equal pay. So whenever they win a metal, apparently they get a lot of money, which I'm like, "That's cool!" Personally, I don't have any stock in sports-ball.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:But hey!
Adrienne Dawes:Me neither.
Nicole Zimmerer:At least they're getting paid.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:And equal pay is a big deal when it comes to disability, the disabled community, 'cause, I think it's, I don't know, if you know, the amount... I think it's like, it's legal to pay disabled workers, like 50 cents on the dollar in some states? In most states. Do you know that number?
Adrienne Dawes:Oh, no, no...
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:But I mean, that sounds right. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah. It's a really big incentive for me to join the workforce. Really. Um...
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:That was sarcasm.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] I got it. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Thank you! So yeah, that's our Disabili-Tea. Paralympians and Olympians getting equal pay. It's a big deal. And I just wanted to celebrate that because sometimes our Disabili-Tea is not fun Disabili-Tea, but I think this one is pretty cool.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, something positive. Some positive tea.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah, that's the best kind of tea like, it's, um...
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:It's sweet tea, it's sweet tea.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:We're both southerners.
Adrienne Dawes:We understand.[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Do you like sweet tea?
Adrienne Dawes:No, I like the idea of it.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] Do I like the taste of it? Absolutely not.
Nicole Zimmerer:Right. Exactly.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:No, me either. Me either. I, like, every time I tell somebody, I'm from Texas they're like, "So you drink a lot of sweet tea, right?" And I'm like "No..."
Adrienne Dawes:Actually, not.
Nicole Zimmerer:No.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:I do ride a horse to school every day, though. So.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Um.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:So, Adrienne, um, I ask this with every guest, like, who are you? What's your deal, what's your damage?
Adrienne Dawes:Who am I? I'm a playwright, I'm a person. I'm a goofy person, at least on the internet, maybe not all the time in-person. But I'm right now in grad school. So that's kind of like a big part of my life is just being a student, being a student again after, like, 15 years since I've been an undergrad. So that's a big part of my life. But I come from Austin, Texas, originally. And I'm in Fayetteville for another year and a half or so. And, yeah, I try to write about found families and fluid identity and all the silly ways we try to find love and acceptance. So, in a nutshell.
Nicole Zimmerer:That's beautiful.
Adrienne Dawes:That's my elevator pitch. Yeah, thank you. I practiced.
Nicole Zimmerer:That's your elevator pitch?
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Do I have an elevator pitch?
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:That's the question. I should have an elevator pitch.
Adrienne Dawes:They always make you do that.
Nicole Zimmerer:In grad school?
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah. They always make you like practice that. Yeah. Or like any kind of arts, like admin entrepreneurship thing, they're like, "Okay, you're in an elevator," like, "How do you explain who you are?" and, I guess that's how I would explain it.
Nicole Zimmerer:That's fair.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:My professors never had me do that. I feel like I was robbed. But--
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:--also at the same time, I feel like if I get in an elevator with somebody, I really don't have to explain myself. They can just look at me and be like, "I know! I know your brand." And I'm like,"Thank you."
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Um... "Hire me, please."
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Um, "you need me."
Adrienne Dawes:Yes, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:So how, how does disability factor into your life?
Adrienne Dawes:So I'm big sister of, uh, there's eight children total in my family. So I am number two of eight, and all my siblings are disabled. So my whole upbringing I've been largely influenced by, you know, growing up alongside my siblings and experiencing the world alongside them, which has been really, really interesting. A lot of caretakers coming in and out of our home. We also were like a rehabilitative home. So we were fostering kids with disabilities for like, most of my childhood. So again, kids coming in and out and different therapists and so it's like, such a big part of my, like, formation as a human. And as an adult it's very different because, you know, I'm not around my family 24/7. So it's like--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--a different experience now, but yeah, really, really watching my, my siblings grow up and sort of the challenges that they've had, and also just like the delight in watching my sister, for example, she, she has a lot of things going on, but she's like blind from the brain and has some other neurological disabilities, but like, she's invented her own language, and like, she has like a really interesting sense of humor. And she tries to speak Spanish, which is also adorable, you know, so she's just really fun, uh man, it's like, it's such a trip to be able to like, joke with her. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:And like, hear her form a joke. It's like, it's like a different rhythm. Totally. And like her language is so different. But, you know, I'm a dramatist, so like, I love language, and I love words, and I love, I love the way that she processes language.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:That's really cool.
Nicole Zimmerer:Um, can I ask how your upbringing like, affects your art now?
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, I mean, I... I will say that when I was a younger writer, I was trying, like, I thought, what would be a cool [laughs] stunt or trick as a playwright is like, I would write something so far from myself, and then, and but, but the art would come in by making it very intimate, you know what I mean? Like, that, to me was like--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--like being a good writer. And so for a long time, I didn't write about my family at all. I didn't write about my upbringing, or my siblings, or my parents or anything. And then I think just recently... you know, because a lot of things you take for granted, it's just like normal to you, you know what I mean?
Nicole Zimmerer:Mm-hm.
Adrienne Dawes:I'm like, yeah, my, my siblings all have a lot of adaptive care, or like equipment, and I changed my brother's diaper, and I feed people and that's normal going home to me, it wasn't until like... um, and my family's not very mobile, too, so we're not really in public that much, because of how difficult it is to move people around. But like, people, I don't think really have a window into that aspect of my life. And so just, I don't know, just more recently, I've been like, "Man, I'm kind of sitting on like, a goldmine."[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:I have all these experiences that to me feel normal, but like, I talk to other people and their eyes, like, I mean like they have like, no concept of what this life is like. And it's like,"Oh, well, I can show you!"[Laughs] Or, "I can show you the parts that I know, or I've seen through my siblings' eyes." So more recently, disability has shown up in my work, I have this play Hairy and Sherri that has a character... I'm thinking you might... I'm thinking, you know this play because like we know each other from the... was it Workshop Theatre's..?
Nicole Zimmerer:Yes, yes.
Adrienne Dawes:What was that called? The "Spring Intensive" or something?
Nicole Zimmerer:Um...
Adrienne Dawes:"Summer Intensive"?
Nicole Zimmerer:I think it was the Spring Intensive.
Adrienne Dawes:Okay.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, yeah. So you kind of, you've known that play a little bit.
Nicole Zimmerer:It might have been the summer? I don't know, time doesn't exist anymore.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, I feel like it was called one thing, but then it was in another....
Nicole Zimmerer:Maybe, maybe...
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] Um, you know, we know each other, though. That's...
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:That's the important thing to get across, we know each other and you kind of know that play. And, so yeah, more recently, I've been like,"Oh, I wonder if the case manager might also be disabled." That might be an interesting aspect to bring forward too. But, um, but yeah, that's the first time I really had a character, where I was like, borrowing things from my siblings. Where I was like, "Oh, some of their behaviors. I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw into this character." Um, and it's been really yeah, it's been really interesting, and um, now the more that I've done more research into, especially like theatre and disability and like, I did this like presentation for my class where I had to, like present about disability in the arts, and sort of like the overlay of like, feminist theatre, like looking at bodies in different ways and presentation of bodies, etc, etc. and, which is fascinating, and I can't recall any of it![Laughs] So don't test me on it, I'd have to go look in my Google Drive, and I can send you articles, but, uh...
Nicole Zimmerer:That would be fantastic.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] There's some great stuff, I mean, I got to read some great stuff. And I think the thing that really like, opened my eyes as a writer is like well, one in four people in the US have a disability, particularly in the South.
Nicole Zimmerer:Mm-hm.
Adrienne Dawes:How often am I writing about the South?
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:And how many of the characters have I written that are disabled? Like not, nothing reflecting reality. So that really for me was like,"Oh, okay, I really need to," you know, "I need to step my game up."
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:For sure, in that regard.
Nicole Zimmerer:And like, um... there's this whole idea of like, you know, your family can't present themselves, or it's very hard for them to go out in public and show people, this is our life.
Adrienne Dawes:Mm-hm.
Nicole Zimmerer:And it's a good life.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:But these are the obstacles, and the, this is what we deal with. I don't want to say they're "obstacles," because like, not to be like,"obstacles don't exist," because they do, but like, I feel like--
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:--a lot of the time when I'm talking to like a non-disabled person, and they're talking to me about disability, they're like, "Oh, I don't know how you do it. Like, I would have such a hard time." And I'm like, "You really wouldn't. You'd just figure out a new way to do things."
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Um...
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:But I feel like because your family isn't mobile, you have the opportunity to like, show people what it's like for them and bring awareness and, you know, understanding and kindness to them--
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:--through your art. And I think that's beautiful.
Adrienne Dawes:Hopefully. Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:That's the goal anyway, yeah. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Can you talk about Hairy and Sherri, because it's a beautiful play.
Adrienne Dawes:Thank you.
Nicole Zimmerer:I read it, when we worked on it in the workshop, I was just blown away. I was like, Oh my gosh!"
Adrienne Dawes:Oh thanks...
Nicole Zimmerer:Um, yeah! So.
Adrienne Dawes:Thank you so much. Yeah, it's... and it's still in process, you know? Um... you know! [Laughs] You know how long it takes to get a play even like--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--to where you feel it's ready, much less like get anybody else interested in it, but um... Hairy and Sherri is about a interracial couple who decide, who're like very wealthy, well-off, they're living in East Austin, gentrified East Austin, and they decide to adopt a kid with disabilities who's like coming through the foster care system, because one of the members of the couple, the wife, she, she and her brother were both in like CPS system. Her brother had a disability and they were like, he's kind of like lost in the system. She like, they weren't placed together, she hasn't been able to find him. So it was sort of, sort of this like, very vulnerable aspect of her. But it also means that she has experienced like, caretaking, and uh, so I mean, in a way it's really, it's really a huge tragedy and also a horror film kind of wrapped into one because they end up, they end of adopting this kid and he has, his needs are really high, and there's like this overlay of not only are there like the challenges with his disability, but then also like, there's so much trauma on top of it.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:And that's the thing as a writer, I'm trying, because it's all fictional, it's not, like I didn't, I wasn't like, "Oh, I have a diagnosis, and then I'm going to write a character." I wrote a character with specific behaviors and now I'm having to do the backtracking because now-- and it's a fair, fair dramaturgy question of like people, "Well, what's his disability?" And I'm like, "Hurh!" [Laughs] "It could be this, it could be this." And--
Nicole Zimmerer:Right.
Adrienne Dawes:--even more recently, someone was like, "He could not have a disability. And this could all be trauma." You know what I mean? And I was like, "Okay, wow, I didn't even think about that."
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:I don't know if that's the direction I want to go. You know?
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:I just like to kind of think about it more. But, uh.
Nicole Zimmerer:Because, well, who is, um, is his name Rashuan? In, in...
Adrienne Dawes:Ryshi. Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Ryshi.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:I like that it's clear that he has a disability, but you don't know what it is. There's something about it that I'm like, "You don't need to know." Um...
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah. Well, um, I will say that, like, I've... because like I said, the questions come up from... producers are asking because they're like, "How do we cast this?" You know?
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:And I'm kind of like, you know, I haven't even. To be honest, we've never had a disabled actor play, in readings, play that, play either role, you know. And I can see, I can see a case for making, in this play, there's like two characters that play the same child. One is an adult actor, which is like, how the husband sees, how the white husband sees this black child as like, as a fully-grown adult. And then there's like a child actor that would come out at the very end. And um, so I can see a case for like, the adult actor, because it's already an abstraction, it's already like, he's like a 12 year old kid and he [the husband] sees like a fully-grown six-foot tall man. So there's like a little bit of wee-- like, uh, well not, not "wee-lay," leeway, that's the word![Laughs] There's a little bit of leeway [laughs] with that, but then you know, I again, it's like a very fair question. And so I've been talking to people, like I've been giving the script to people that do the diagnosis either like through, they either work in like a counseling setting or I guess a medical doctor too who also does like diagnoses. And so that was interesting talking to them because they were like reading through the script and like,"Okay, well these behaviors suggest this." And like, even some of the language, they're like, "Oh, well Ryshi understands," gosh I forget what part of the play but there was like, Ryshi responses to something. And his, his, his language is very, very simple and kind of broken, broken in a different way. But they were like, "Oh, his cognition to understand what that term is and then to come back with like a retort like suggests this is a higher-functioning person." And I was like, "Okay, wow, I hadn't..." you know what I mean? Like, it's just a weird--
Nicole Zimmerer:Mm-hm.
Adrienne Dawes:--gray zone of like, my inspiration is coming from a real person and the way that they chop up language just because that's the way my sister speaks. But like, of course it's theatricalized because if you put, if you literally put my sister on stage, and you were like, "Tell me about your past trauma," she would talk about[laughs] like--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--she doesn't have a concept of yesterday, you what I mean? Like, that's just not... for the dramatic purposes, like I need, I need a character who--
Nicole Zimmerer:Right.
Adrienne Dawes:--who has these specific things, right? So, and it is this like, how much of the mirror do you show, that is 100% accuracy? I'm sure, like, you have this with every character, right? Like, how much of it is about like, this is a true, like, I'm holding a mirror up to disability or race or whatever. And how much of it is like, well, theatrically, I'm working in the space that's a little bit more like fluid, you know?
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:And I don't have the right [laughs] answer to it. Other than, like, I'm just trying to... and because it hasn't been produced yet, I'm in a good spot where I can get those outside perspectives, you know, of like...
Nicole Zimmerer:Exactly.
Adrienne Dawes:"Well, it could be this, it could be that..." You know?
Nicole Zimmerer:I mean, I write characters that are mainly physically disabled, because, um--
Adrienne Dawes:Mm-hm.
Nicole Zimmerer:--that's just what I know, and I constantly ask myself, "Am I just showing the audience a palatable representation?" Like, I'm not showing them, at least as of right now, I haven't shown them, like, the the dirtier side of, of disability. And I do mean, like, you know, how do we go to the bathroom? How do we, like if, if there's a fall, and we literally are bleeding? And like, 'cause there's...
Adrienne Dawes:Hmm...
Nicole Zimmerer:A lot of my friends are like, "You should show that part. It's an important part of like, your life." And I'm like, "Yeah, but that's a private thing for me."
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:It's not that I'm ashamed of it. It's just like, you don't need to know my business! You know? Like...
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:But like, but it's also like, because you want to have a real representation of disability, but you also, there's a protective thing. Um, and also, you don't know how the audience is gonna react to... you don't know how the audience is gonna react. So.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah. And with casting, it's like, I don't know what actors are gonna be showing up, too. I mean, I, I know it's a perfect answer because, this is the thing I understand is like, if you write too broad of a character, and you're like,"Oh, they're like, vaguely, this thing I don't really know about." And I fully understand that criticism of like, "No, no, no, like, it's not just like, you know, their type of disability, their challenges, their strengths," like, those are all very specific things that are going to inform character 100%.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:If someone has been disabled since birth, versus like, an accident that happens, those are like--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--different experiences, and like, having that specificity to a character to a story could be really, really, really important.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Um. But like, with casting, it's like, it's like, almost like I don't know who, especially like this is, this character is supposed to be 12, but I really honestly imagine probably someone in high school or college who is just a smaller size would probably play this character. And like, I don't know who's going to come in. I would, I would rather have like an incredible actor come in, and I start to adapt that character to fit that actor.
Nicole Zimmerer:Mm-hm.
Adrienne Dawes:Versus like, I have this tiny box... because I do, I mean like the feedback I've gotten at least from like the medical community, which I know is that all the perspective, that's one perspective, has been like, "It can be a couple of different things." And so I kind of like that. "Okay, it could be a couple of different things," means the door is a little bit more open.
Nicole Zimmerer:Right.
Adrienne Dawes:You know, like, we know we have some mobility, we know he, he says that he can read. But it's also a question mark, like, "Can he really read?" [Laughs] Like is he saying he can read or can he really read? You know. There's like lots of options, and it feels like... you've read my work, I have a lot of specificity and like stage directions, and like costuming and all these things, and... I guess what I'm trying to do, whether it's a cop-out or not, I'm trying to like leave open some space for the director and for the actors to kind of fill in, a little bit. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:That makes total sense.
Adrienne Dawes:But I'm sure--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah. I'm sure I'll have, I'll across that bridge. You know, where someone's gonna be like point blank, like, "Why didn't you make a choice about this?" And I'll have to go [laughs]"Because I heard my sister's voice and then I made everything up around that?" [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:[Laughs]
Adrienne Dawes:That's literally, you know. An answer.
Nicole Zimmerer:It's a weird, it's a weird tightrope kind of situation.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Cause you were talking about like, if somebody has been disabled since birth versus if somebody hasn't been disabled since birth. And because I have characters who are physically disabled, I have like a much, like wheelchair users, there's a range. There's ambulatory users, there's--
Adrienne Dawes:Mm-hm.
Nicole Zimmerer:--people like me, who's, I'm basically in my wheelchair most hours of the day. Except if you're my therapist, then I have been using my walker, I promise!
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Um... [Laughs] Uh, but I've noticed that the way like my friends who have been disabled since birth, play a character, and then I have friends who haven't been disabled since birth play the same character differently. And I'm like--
Adrienne Dawes:Mm-hm.
Nicole Zimmerer:"Oh, that's fascinating!" Because like--
Adrienne Dawes:Mm-hm, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:--there's a different level of emotion when it comes to like, I don't know. I mean, I just had a character, she was very, very angry, and my friend who's been disabled since birth tapped in that anger. And then I had another friend play it who didn't happen to that anger? And I was like,"Fascinating."
Adrienne Dawes:Hmm... Interesting.
Nicole Zimmerer:So is that, is that--
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:--a question for me as a playwright? Or is that just an actor choice?
Adrienne Dawes:Mm-hm.
Nicole Zimmerer:You know?
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah. That is a really good question. Yeah. And can it be both? Like, can different productions...?
Nicole Zimmerer:Right.
Adrienne Dawes:You know, like, different directors or designers bring out these different elements and like--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--can the story hold more than one truth? You know.
Nicole Zimmerer:That's the question with playwriting.
Adrienne Dawes:Ideally, I would say, "Yes." You know?
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Like, ideally, there are lots of lenses, you know. Within reason, we're not talking about people rewriting your play, or doing it totally off, you know, off what's on the page. But can there be more than one truth--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--within the same story?
Nicole Zimmerer:One, more than one perspective. You know, like, I think the reason that Shakespeare has survived, as long as he has is like, there are so many different takes for his plays, because he was just writing about humanity. And disability is part of--
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:--the human experience.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:No matter who you are, you're either disabled or dead at the end of it. So. Sorry, that was a bit dark.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:But, you know.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] It's true. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:It's true. Um...
Adrienne Dawes:Truth is dark.[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah, and like, I have this series that I'm doing on TikTok that I-- well, I posted the first video and then I got really nervous, so I deleted it--
Adrienne Dawes:Uh-oh. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:--but I'm doing a series called "Characters I Think Are More Interesting When They're Played by Disabled Performers."
Adrienne Dawes:Ooo... That sounds awesome.
Nicole Zimmerer:I think about Lady M a lot from Mackers.
Adrienne Dawes:Oh, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:I'd love to see a disabled Lady Mackers.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]"Mackers!" [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Um.
Adrienne Dawes:That's great.
Nicole Zimmerer:I don't want to jinx the pod, Adrienne!
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah!
Nicole Zimmerer:I don't wanna have to like...
Adrienne Dawes:Oh, true, true, true.
Nicole Zimmerer:Deal with--
Adrienne Dawes:True, true true.
Nicole Zimmerer:--you know, the Scottish Play juju on the pod!
Adrienne Dawes:Great. That's very fair. Yeah, yeah that's fair.
Nicole Zimmerer:But yeah, I just, because like, there are so many different ways that we can be inclusive with disabilities. And then, like--
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:--the powers that be just don't have that big imagination. So, yeah, um, anyway.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Where was I going with this? That's the constant question I have.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Have you thought about, you know, taking the feedback from the medical community and deciding on one, like, one path?
Adrienne Dawes:One diagnosis for this character.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Um. I will say like, I feel like it's really helpful dramaturgy to have, to like bring to a director and the team and be like, "Look, there are a couple of different options for what this is, and what this could look like." And kind of letting that be the conversation, more than me and the script. And this is where I am as of today, you know.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:I've got to keep thinking about it. Like I said, I also thought about, I thought very much about... I don't know if this guy his last name is it Freeze or Fries test? Where it's like, you know there's the Bechdel Test--
Nicole Zimmerer:Mm-hm.
Adrienne Dawes:--for like feminist work, and there's like a test for disability in media. And one of, one of, either, it was either inspired by this or just me riffing off of it, where I was like, "Oh, yeah, there's only one disabled character on stage in this play." And that's why I was like, "Well, maybe the case manager..." Like there's no reason why Vera--
Nicole Zimmerer:Right.
Adrienne Dawes:--couldn't also be disabled. You know what I mean? And then there's not like just one person [laughs] hanging out there. I mean, especially because this actor is not on stage for like, most of the play, to be honest, they just come out at the end. So yeah, I mean, those are kind of more of the considerations I'm thinking about right now, is like...
Nicole Zimmerer:Mm-hm.
Adrienne Dawes:How to, how to expand the world a little bit more. But yeah, it basically becomes like a horror story of how these people who are so well-intentioned and they want to be the best and they, um... It ends up in tragedy, unfortunately. But I tried to leave it, you know, I don't-- I'm trying to remember, you've read drafts that are very old, but like, I've been moving closer and closer to like an ending that there's sort of like a question mark of like, maybe there's hope? And, and that's, that's kind of more-- I'd love it if the audience were split at the end. And like half the audience wants to murder the parents, which is fair because they're terrible. They do terrible things.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:They have an option to do great things. And they, and they both come from traumatic backgrounds. And they both continue to perpetuate that trauma, which I think is a huge tragedy.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:But I also like, want half the audience to be like, "There is hope." Just because this kid has come from trauma doesn't mean his life is over.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:It doesn't mean he can't find love and have love in his life. And so I want it to be that. So I've been inching towards that more like vague, vague ending is kind of where we're at right now.
Nicole Zimmerer:I think that's a fantastic idea, because I remember when we read it in the workshop, and I don't know if this was helpful at all, but I was like, "I just, I just want to knock the parents out."
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Not in like-- Knock their heads together and be like, "Hello?!"
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:'Cause it just reminded me, a couple years ago, I saw a video of a couple who was like wanting to adopt, and they had this questionnaire of like, "Would you adopt a child with Down syndrome? Would you adopt a child on the spectrum? Would you adopt a child with intellectual needs, physical needs..." And they just like, I could see them and I could see, like them realize that, like, they don't have the bandwidth for that.
Adrienne Dawes:Mm-hm.
Nicole Zimmerer:And it just, it just broke my heart, because there are so many kids in the system, who do have--
Adrienne Dawes:Mm-hm.
Nicole Zimmerer:--disabilities, and they, ugh, God... oh, my God.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah. It's extremely difficult to be placed. Yeah, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:I mean, this play, this play also talks a lot about race, too. I mean--
Nicole Zimmerer:Right.
Adrienne Dawes:--there's, there's a layer, texture of that too that also makes it really challenging. But you're right, you know... this is kind of, not rare but like a case where like, you do have parents who are like, open to adopting someone with a disability and then, and they say that they're prepared, and they say, they understand and that they're, they're like, getting themselves ready to care for this person. And then they fail to meet their needs. And um, so that's a huge, I mean that's obviously, a huge tragedy. But yeah, I mean, I do want to leave it open. For, I keep being like, "Man, if there's, if there's ever an opportunity to come back to any of these characters, I'd love to see that character as an adult."
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:And like, I imagine Vera takes him home, the case manager takes him home, even though that's also a complicated choice, you know?
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah. That's also what I imagined because it was like, "Ugh..." I was like,"At least the kid's not alone," you know what I mean?
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah. Are you writing other plays? Because I know you have Teen Dad and I was wondering if that has disability in it as well.
Adrienne Dawes:I don't think that play does, to be honest. However, yeah, I mean, it's... it's never been produced. So I mean, we've actually, yeah.[Laughs] I've never, we've never had like a casting situation yet.
Nicole Zimmerer:But it's been published!
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, this is what's weird. Yeah. So Nicole, this is what's really weird is like it was published before it's been produced. And uh, that's not normal. [Laughs] But my agent was like... I'm also, it's like a pandemic. It's like, what else is going on right now? So like--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--yeah, I'll take an advance before Christmas. Are you kidding me? For sure.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:But I also am like, "Man, I know I'm going to see a production and see like 10 things wrong." And then, like, have that awkward conversation with the publisher, like, "Can we please fix this?" I mean, I read it as much as possible. We proofed it. I've heard that play read like, that one I've been developing since like, 2013, you know, and--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--just no bites on the production end. And so I just kept doing reading after reading after reading and trying to, try to do that. But it does talk about in terms of family, and because I'm adopted, all my siblings and I are adopted. So it does talk about my family kind of through that, through that lens, for sure.
Nicole Zimmerer:Mm-hm.
Adrienne Dawes:But yeah, you know, I'm always kind of tinkering around with stuff. But it's helpful because I have school so I have like, deadlines. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:You know, you're expected to like, crank out stuff. So yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah. That's that's a, that's a plus for the grad school column. Because I don't have that anymore. I'm like, "Ugh, I have to set my own deadlines."
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah. Are you writing?
Nicole Zimmerer:Am I writing?!
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Um, I don't want to say "No," because I feel like I'm always writing but I'm not like...
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:I don't know if my professor [laughs] listens to this pod. But uh, Rob, if you are listening--
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:I have not read a published script in two years.
Adrienne Dawes:Okay. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:I am writing, I'm not writing theatre right now. I'm kind of, like, taking a break from theatre and kind of like reconfiguring--
Adrienne Dawes:Sure.
Nicole Zimmerer:--everything because, I mean with this whole like, in 2020 like Broadway and like theatre around the country, they were like, "We're gonna be better, we're gonna do better, we're gonna..." when it comes to like equity and diversity, and... So they're opening up and I-- like they talk-the-talk, but I don't know if they're gonna walk-the-walk.
Adrienne Dawes:Mm-hm.
Nicole Zimmerer:And I've been reading, um, maybe I talked to you about it, but Quiara Hudes wrote a 2018 article on like,"I'm taking a break from theatre, and this is why."
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:And it's basically like the same thing. I love theatre so much. Um, it's kind of breaking my heart a little bit, so--
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah...
Nicole Zimmerer:--I'm taking a small break.
Adrienne Dawes:Oh, fair.
Nicole Zimmerer:That doesn't mean I'm never gonna write anything ever again. Because I have plays in my head... and well, since we're talking about, you know, the plays we did in workshop, you read a--
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:--a very, well it's, it's the latest draft of Eat Your Heart Out, but I'm changing the entire play.
Adrienne Dawes:Whoa!
Nicole Zimmerer:It's getting like a complete-- yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Cool!
Nicole Zimmerer:Not like.
Adrienne Dawes:Exciting, potentially! [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yes. Yes. So, I mean, like, it's still gonna be about the three sisters. But there's gonna be no men. Um, which, I'm really proud of that.
Adrienne Dawes:Awesome...
Nicole Zimmerer:No, no men.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] Just kidding.
Nicole Zimmerer:You hear a man in the end scene, but you don't, you never see...
Adrienne Dawes:Huh.
Nicole Zimmerer:Because it's a play about you know, how the fact that like, women, even if we're not in spaces where a man is present, like the patriarchy is still like, all around us.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:It's gonna be really cool. I'm really excited. I'm actually, I'm building the playlist for it right now, because I need--
Adrienne Dawes:Ooo...
Nicole Zimmerer:--to procrastinate actually writing the play. So, that's what I'm doing right now.
Adrienne Dawes:That's a good way to do it, too. [Laughs] I have playlists for plays I haven't even written yet.[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah, exactly! Exactly.
Adrienne Dawes:It's ridiculous. You gotta have a playlist.
Nicole Zimmerer:Right? Right.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:It's like it's a mix between like, witchy, siren, ambiance things--
Adrienne Dawes:Ooo... ok.
Nicole Zimmerer:--and then like, pop songs where women are like, "I eat boys for breakfast." You know what I mean?
Adrienne Dawes:Whoa, fun!
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Oh that's great!
Nicole Zimmerer:It's very man-hater-y. Um...
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Which is on-brand for me, mostly.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Sorry, Scott. Um.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Scott is our producer, by the way. He's a man, but I don't hate him!
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] Yes.
Nicole Zimmerer:Um, and then, I don't know if I talked to you about this, but the play about the actress who doesn't get the part, and she kills the entire artistic team?
Adrienne Dawes:I think, you ment-- was that gonna be a TV show?
Nicole Zimmerer:It, it was like--
Adrienne Dawes:Or...
Nicole Zimmerer:I mean, we talked about this, um--
Adrienne Dawes:Okay, maybe I'm confusing it.
Nicole Zimmerer:I think, because I was talking about like TV shows I want to do and then I talked about this play, and you were like, "That could be the TV show." And I was like,"Correct."
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:So, I'm working on that.
Adrienne Dawes:Cool.
Nicole Zimmerer:That's gonna be really interesting, 'cause it's gonna be less naturalistic. Like, it's not gonna be set totally in, you know, reality, which is where I usually, like I'm very much like grounded in real life...
Adrienne Dawes:Mm-hm.
Nicole Zimmerer:Slice of life, thing...
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:But with this play, it's gonna be more[Twilight Zone sound].
Adrienne Dawes:Weird stuff. That's fun, though! That like dream logic, um, for lack of a better term, surreal, you know?
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:It's gunna be really, really fun to play in that space. That's awesome.
Nicole Zimmerer:And I'm thinking about Hairy and Sherri a lot because you said "horror," and I was like, that is a horror play.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:I want the"actress play" to be like a horror comedy.
Adrienne Dawes:Oh, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Um, so...
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah! So what's funny is, I imagine the posters.[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:And I imagine, I don't know if you've seen those, um, I think they're either Kabuki or Noh theatre, uh, the masks? Where like, depending on where you stand, they either look like they're smiling or frowning. And like, I want an image of like Hairy and Sherri, where like, depending on where you're standing, they either look like, like, gorgeous, funny, cute couple, or like terrifying.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:And um, I have, that's probably the one play I have... I don't think it's a TV show, but I do think it could be a film. I do think it could be like, then you could really amp up the horror aspects of it, you know?
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah. Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah. I mean, the full title for me is "Hairy and Sherri Are Scary." You know?
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:If you're adopted, or [laughs] you've worked with kids in foster care or you're disabled or anyone you love is disabled, this is a horror story.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yes.
Adrienne Dawes:Absolutely. But it's also funny. You know...
Nicole Zimmerer:It was a horror story for me.
Adrienne Dawes:Oh, yeah. Yeah![Laughs] I mean, it's your worst nightmare--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah. Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--is like being stuck in that home and then like... or being, or being like, just discarded so easily. You know? That's, that's terrifying to think about--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--if you're, you know, coming from an adopted situation, the number-one fear is that you, you know, get abandoned. So, yeah. Yeah. But--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah!
Adrienne Dawes:--there's also jokes! [Laughs] It's also a comedy, which is hard to explain, but, uh... But yeah, I'm really hopeful for that one. It's just this gosh dang Panasonic, it's hard to tell...
Nicole Zimmerer:[Laughs]
Adrienne Dawes:You know, nothing's really open. So it's just like... I feel like once things are for real, in a tangible way, that play could do things. But--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--right now, there's not a lot it can do. So. It's a bummer. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:I mean, it's a horror play, but it is so funny. And I, I'm, like, I'm constantly thinking about how funny disability actually is.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:But you know, when you talk to like, somebody who is non-disabled and has no context for disability, they're like, "How can you laugh? This is so serious."
Adrienne Dawes:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:"This is like, the most tragic thing to ever actually happen." And I'm like, no, it's hilarious. Trust me, like!
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:I'm trying to think of something that's terribly funny, but I can't, but like--
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:--I will.
Adrienne Dawes:It's hard to, on the spot. All I just think about my brother, um, my brother has cerebral palsy and uses a chair and like, he and I growing up would always be like, basically fucking with people.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah!
Adrienne Dawes:You know what I mean? Like, because they would treat him like a baby, you know? And I'd be like, "Dude..."[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:We would have a lot of fun in public because people just get so fragile. You know what I mean? Like, they just--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--assume that my siblings are super fragile, and like, and then he and I would like, I can't remember, I also can't remember a thing. But I think one thing we would always, I would always be like, "Uh, go sit down!" or something [laughs] like that.
Nicole Zimmerer:Exactly!
Adrienne Dawes:And people will be like, "Oh, my God!" you know? But like, that's our, like that's our joke. [Laughs] It's okay, because we make that joke, you know?
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] Or that we look like a group home[laughs], when we're out in public.
Nicole Zimmerer:[Laughs]
Adrienne Dawes:And that was my favorite one, was like-- I had a stand up act that I used to do and I used to talk about how my mom was like, the pageant queen, because she would like, be signing like, "Thank you. This is my family." [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:[Laughs]
Adrienne Dawes:Because none of us look, none of us look alike--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--and, we'd, people just stare at us in public. They'd be like, "Wait a second..." 'Cause, also 'cause we're like, the adoption thing, and like, everyone's a different race. So like, people are already like, trying to make--
Nicole Zimmerer:Sense of it.
Adrienne Dawes:--some connection between us. And so they're like, you must be a group home.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah, yeah. No, it's um...
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Something that I love to do is-- well, I have two, I have two things that I do with new people. When I meet somebody new. Within like, the second I meet them, I make a cripple joke. And I just see their face go completely paralyzed.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:It's my favorite thing. And it really tells me... like it's a barometer for me, like, "Is this person cool?"
Adrienne Dawes:Mm-hm.
Nicole Zimmerer:Or, like, am I gonna have to--
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:--treat them with kid gloves for the next 10 minutes?
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Before they like, unclench their butt.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah. Um, and I just started to do this recently, but I like to remind people, that they're gonna, they're all going to be disabled one day.
Adrienne Dawes:Oh, yeah. Yeah![Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:And just to see--
Adrienne Dawes:See what happens, to--
Nicole Zimmerer:--their face.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah. Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah!
Nicole Zimmerer:It's my favorite thing.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:And I think that comes out, from more, like, I'm a little bit more angry right now because like, nobody's like, doing anything right. Like, the pandemic was supposed to be over!
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:We're all supposed to get vaccinated!
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah. [Sigh] That's a huge-- I mean, I think a lot about, and this is this massive disabling event too.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:And so I'm really curious what happens. I mean, obviously, we think about it in the art space, because we're like artists, but like, just overall, like, there's going to be more people that are disabled--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--you know? And have specific needs that, you know, it's kind of like TBD with a lot of the like medical stuff, so...
Nicole Zimmerer:Mm-hm.
Adrienne Dawes:Repercussions or like long-lasting effects of COVID and stuff, so um... Yeah, I mean, you'd hope, in a optimistic side you'd hope that that opens people's minds a little bit more to accessibility and a host of different issues. Like we were talking about employment and pay and--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--all those things, but then there's also the part of me that's like,"Man, I don't know." [Laughs] I don't, I haven't felt a whole lot of hope--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah?
Adrienne Dawes:--to be perfectly honest. Not like it's, it's a day to day thing, you know? It's like ask me tomorrow, and I'll feel a little bit better, but--
Nicole Zimmerer:Exactly.
Adrienne Dawes:--you know, it's just um... Yeah, it'll be really interesting to see what happens with all the, all of the concerns we're wrestling with right now.
Nicole Zimmerer:It's gonna be really interesting. And all the mental stuff going on.
Adrienne Dawes:Mm-hm.
Nicole Zimmerer:The first time I went out in public, I was terrified.
Adrienne Dawes:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:I was vaccinated and I had a mask, but I was still so scared. I was like, "Don't touch me. Don't... Six feet! Six feet, dude!"
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah...
Nicole Zimmerer:And I do, I think, I think my chair, my big power chair is like a cage. So, I...
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:And I can ram anybody who gets too close.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, yeah. You got a little barrier between you. Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah, yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:But still, yeah. It's changed a lot of like, anxiety, like just, you know, anxiety that you have anyway, or you might have anyway socially, but then now-- Yeah, like, I'm even more isolated, I think. You know, there was that like brief bit of hope when you got vaccinated, where you were like,"Okay, well, maybe things..." Like I just needed a light at the end of the tunnel. Like, I knew--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:I knew things would be slow and like not to get my hopes too high. But like, I just needed to see some change. And so like, that felt like, "Oh, that's some change!" And, and now it's like, you know, I got to like, see some friends. I went to a karaoke bar, which sounds insane now...[laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Especially because we were all sharing the same mic. And like, I was just sort of, I was like internally though, like, trying to enjoy the experience and like be with my friends, but like, inside I was like, "Aaah! There's germs everywhere!" [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:[Laughs]
Adrienne Dawes:"I know we're vaccinated, but like, there's no little condoms on the mic?" Like...
Nicole Zimmerer:[Laughs]
Adrienne Dawes:You know, we're gonna share from...? Uh it just, it's just things you never thought you would be like, freaked out about, but...
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Um, I spend time alone a lot.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Because I just kind of can't deal.
Nicole Zimmerer:Can I ask what your karaoke song is?
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Your go-to karaoke song?
Adrienne Dawes:Um... Okay, there's lots of answers to that.[Laughs] I should have said in my intro, like "A portable karaoke enthusiast" is also one of my strengths or one of my identities.
Nicole Zimmerer:Good to know.
Adrienne Dawes:I have one of those portable mics and I'm happy to take it anywhere, I can make the party happen anywhere. Um, if it's starting out early I need something simple on the voice so I need-- maybe like a Nelly Furtado, like, Say It Right. You know what I mean? Like something really--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yep.
Adrienne Dawes:--simple, basic.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:I'm not a great singer, but like, I'm okay. I'm okay. That's to warm me up. Once I'm really going and I've had a couple drinks, I love Soundgarden. Uh... What is it? Black Hole Sun, but I-- 'Cause feel like that's a good stripper song. [Laughs] And in an alternate universe I would strip to that song. Because there's snakes, it's like very sexy. I love it.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah!
Adrienne Dawes:And then closing down the night-- Sorry, you didn't ask-- [laughs] But you're gonna get this answer anyway![Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:This is exactly what I wanted!
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:This is exactly what I wanted!
Adrienne Dawes:This is where I have a lot of knowledge. Um...
Nicole Zimmerer:[Laughs]
Adrienne Dawes:Ending the night I love to do combo, um, Aquarius into Let the Sun Shine In, you know, Fifth Harmony?
Nicole Zimmerer:Ooo!
Adrienne Dawes:With like everyone with tambourines, and you pass the mic so everyone-- because you know, the keys keep changing, and it's like insane. So I don't have-- I have ones where like, my heart says "Yes," my vocal range says "No," but like--
Nicole Zimmerer:[Laughs]
Adrienne Dawes:--at that point in the night, I'm just like, I just want to love everyone and like--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--sing and dance, so... Those are like my three kind of touchstone songs.
Nicole Zimmerer:Okay. I love that the answer was thorough--
Adrienne Dawes:What about you?[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:I don't, I don't go to karaoke bars. I do not go to karaoke bars.
Adrienne Dawes:Ooh... Not a private one?
Nicole Zimmerer:Nobody has asked me to a karaoke bar.
Adrienne Dawes:Ooh...
Nicole Zimmerer:My friends don't sing. Which is ironic, because I'm a--
Adrienne Dawes:Theatre person.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Scott MacDonald:I've never been to a karaoke bar either, if it makes you--
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Scott MacDonald:--feel any better.
Nicole Zimmerer:I mean, I have been to a karaoke bar, but it hasn't...
Adrienne Dawes:You haven't performed? Okay.
Nicole Zimmerer:It hasn't happened in a while.
Adrienne Dawes:Okay.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah. So Adrienne, do you have any new plays in the pot?
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] I do. But like in terms of like, disability representation, I want to keep, I want to keep explor-- actually, like when I was-- when I was listening to your podcast, and you had the conversation about like marriage and like, in terms of like, benefits and stuff from, from the government and like, how people will intentionally not get married, because it like will mess up their benefits. I was like, "That's a really interesting... that's a really interesting dynamic."
Nicole Zimmerer:Yep.
Adrienne Dawes:You know? That I've yet to see on stage, you know, and, and um... I, I'm at the point where I'm just like, trying to listen as much as possible, like, Twitter, anything... Because what's beautiful about social media is people will get on and tell you, they're like, "I wish I could see more of this." "Why don't we see this?" "I wish..." "Why did they do this with this character?" And I'm quietly being a creep, screen-grabbing and taking notes. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:So that, you know, I have them, you know. When someone's like, "Oh, well, what would you like to talk about?" I can be like, "Oh, well, there's this character..." You know, what I mean? It has to be stuff I also think it's interesting, but like, there's, there's a wealth of information about people just telling you all day, nonstop, about the representation that they'd like to see. So.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:That's where I'm at. I'm working on, um... I have this playing called This Bitch.[Laughs] It's actually my favorite. It's one of my favorite titles, because now anytime you Google my name, it'll be like "Adrienne Dawes, This Bitch." [Laughs] And I'm so proud of it. But uh, that's an adaptation, speaking of like Shakespeare, Shakespeare times, that's an adaptation of a Lope de Vega play. So that's like a really fun, just big farce, people on the beach, falling in love, pretending to not be in love--
Nicole Zimmerer:I love it.
Adrienne Dawes:--social influencers. So, yeah! I'm working on that. And that's really fun. Because it's so, it's popcorn. It's not going to save the world. It's not deep, it's just jokes on jokes on jokes. And that's been really fun in the apocalypse to like, get to be there. You know?[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:I am a big supporter of popcorn plays.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Plays that are not gonna save the world. We're not doing anything deep--
Adrienne Dawes:No.
Nicole Zimmerer:--or like introspective. We're just having a good time. And I will talk about this until the cows come home...
Adrienne Dawes:It just taste good!
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah!
Adrienne Dawes:Yes!
Nicole Zimmerer:I don't know if you have this dynamic in grad school right now. But like, I went to grad school, and I felt like, you know, comedy was looked down upon a little bit, and I was like, "Can...? Is it...? It's theatre!"
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah!
Nicole Zimmerer:Like the Greeks had tragedy and comedy!
Adrienne Dawes:--and comedy. Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Like, The Frogs.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Genius!
Adrienne Dawes:Hilarious.
Nicole Zimmerer:Aristophanes knew what he was doing!
Adrienne Dawes:Aristophanes is hilarious.
Nicole Zimmerer:Right?
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] Don't have anyone tell you any different.
Nicole Zimmerer:Right? Exactly.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:But like, popcorn plays...
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, I don't get-- I mean, like, we know we need-- I was just gonna say like, we need them, like you smell someone microwaving popcorn--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--and you wanna eat it. You know? You know, it's like filler-food, it's not gonna fill you up and like, give you anything but like, it smells and tastes great in the moment.[Laughs] And that's what it feels like we kind of need right now. It's like, we're already living in like hell. So like, just to have two hours of escape is like--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--gorgeous, you know? So yeah, I... My professor-- It's funny because my advisor, like, this is now my, I'm going into my third year and just in my last year he was like, "So you write a lot of comedy." [Laughs] Like, it's kind of established, like, "You can do jokes, but like, can you do..." you what I mean? I'm sort of like, "Yeah, but I don't wanna not make..." like, why, why not do a drama and also make jokes along the way? Like...
Nicole Zimmerer:Exactly! Exactly.
Adrienne Dawes:Why is it either or? So...
Nicole Zimmerer:"Porque no los dos?" is what I say.
Adrienne Dawes:I... yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:I think it's harder to be a comedian in a lot of ways, especially in theatre, like it is kind of looked down on, and you do kind of have to package it in another, like, wrapper sometimes.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:But yeah. I mean, like, it's just such a great disarming element to get the audience to like really listen to you and take you seriously. Like, if you can make someone laugh, they're yours for two hours. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:I'm constantly, constantly thinking about my thesis because I'm egotistical. Um...
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:But like my thesis was a comedy. And it had a disabled detective.
Adrienne Dawes:Oh, cool.
Nicole Zimmerer:And like, I had a lot of questions about that, that play, but a lot of, a lot of the questions were like, "Why was the detective disabled? Like you didn't mention it? Was it like a, like a deep, tragic backstory?" And I'm like--
Adrienne Dawes:No.
Nicole Zimmerer:--"No! The detective is disabled, because they just were."
Adrienne Dawes:Yes. Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah. And I was like, "Are you really that shocked that disabled people can have fun?"
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Um...
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:But like, I'm just like, disabled people don't have to explain why we are in a space. That's also something that, that I like is when disabled people are in comedies, and they're not the butt of the joke.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:And they don't have like, this whole tragic backstory thing.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:We don't need to know, you just need to be funny. Basically.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:So I applaud you for doing comedy in grad school, because it took me a lot of time to get to that conclusion. Is your thesis a comedy?
Adrienne Dawes:I don't know![Laughs] So I mean, [laughs] the answer-- you can tell by the sound of my voice, like, I'm hoping This Bitch will be my thesis. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Oh!
Adrienne Dawes:Just to submit a paper that's like "This Bitch, a thesis by Adrienne Dawes." Um, I'm really hoping, I have to have that conversation with them, but probably it will-- I mean, my other option, I have this play called Dupe that's like, you can imagine like a very twin-ception farce that's about like race and identity and being an artist. That's the other option I have.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:But at my school it's always a question of like, casting and do we have diverse actors?
Nicole Zimmerer:Mm-hm.
Adrienne Dawes:So it's a challenge... like that's the kind of hard conversation I have to have with, with my school is like--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--"What can we swing? Can we swing bilingual actors and a bilingual director, or can I swing, you know, two black female leads?" [Laughs] You know, that's hard to come by--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--at my school...
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Um, not impossible. Just takes money, and outreach, and time. But...
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah, that's something I constantly think about. Like it's not impossible. It just takes time and money.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Which is something that people don't want to give out that easily.
Adrienne Dawes:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:So, yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Especially in academia, but...
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah, yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:But yeah, we'll see. We have to start having those conversations soon. Because that would be-- so this is crazy, I'm in my third year, which is normal for this program, it's a three year program, but like they're giving us a fourth so hopefully our productions can be in-person. So I'm on-deck for, you know, two more years, so we'll start talking this year about next year.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:So, soon. TBD.
Nicole Zimmerer:Well, good luck! I mean, like, disability in academia, and like diversity in academia is a whole 'nother topic that we can do--
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:--with a whole'nother episode. But like, I've done it, you have my number, if you need any more advice.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] Yeah, yes! No you've been really helpful. Thank you.
Nicole Zimmerer:Speaking about the future, Adrienne, do you have any upcoming projects that you want the people to know about?
Adrienne Dawes:Yes! Well, this is a "Yes, hopefully", like,"cross your fingers, that this will happen." But allegedly,[laughs] I'll have a, the world premiere my play Casta, in uh, I think it would be fall of '22. So next fall would be a production with Salvage Vanguard. And this play, I've been working on this play since 2016. It is a beast, it's huge. There's like an eight-person ensemble who--
Nicole Zimmerer:Oh wow!
Adrienne Dawes:--perform, and puppeteer, and some of them play instruments. There's all this dance and movement involved. It's supposed to be opening at the Blanton Museum of Art in Austin, Texas, alongside an exhibit of casta paintings. So there's a lot of moving pieces with this, the play is about-- so like, it is an adaptation or like, I guess like a historical adaptation is the best way to describe it, which, not my wheelhouse, again, I really come more from comedy. But I found out about these series of paintings called "castas." They look at race or caste in 18th century Mexico, so that's like, you'll see these 16 panels and each have like a mother, a father, and a child with like a description of what their mixture is. So it'll be like, "A European plus an indigenous person makes mestiza" is like the first one. And it'll go through like 16 variations. And I found these paintings and was like, even though I didn't know what they were, you know I'm mixed race so I was like, "I know exactly..." like, "How do I know exactly what this is without ever reading about it?" So that was like 2016. And I went through this, like, you know how it is with dramaturgy, you just get like obsessed, and then started--
Nicole Zimmerer:Mm-hm.
Adrienne Dawes:--reading all these books, and I've gone to the LACMA in Los Angeles has a has a lot of the paintings. I've been to, I've gotten grants to go to Mexico and go to Spain and see the paintings. So the play is like basically putting on stage 16 of these paintings. So there's like a real world reference. And so it's kind of like in this space of like perform-- it's like a little bit performance-art-y, but like, there is some humor. It's also family-friendly, which is not my usual. Um, it's a lot of things. There's original composition Graham Reynolds is doing. But we talk a lot about colorism and race but like from within a Mexican context. So I'm really excited about it. We've got a lot of great funders. [Laughs] Which I don't know if that's like a plug [laughs] or humblebrag, but like--
Nicole Zimmerer:That sounds amazing.
Adrienne Dawes:--it made me feel like, cool as shit to like, have like, the NEA and like MAP Fund, you know, want to support this project...
Nicole Zimmerer:Wow, the NEA, you're getting federal with this stuff!
Adrienne Dawes:I know! [Laughs] I know, you know my bio got updated [snaps] like that.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yep. Yep.
Adrienne Dawes:No, I mean, it's outside validation or like recognition that like--
Nicole Zimmerer:Right.
Adrienne Dawes:--"Oh, this is an interesting story, and we want to support it." So hopefully, we'll get to perform that live in the Blanton Museum of Art. And if not, it might be performed in a different space, you know, just depends on... oh so many things. [Sigh] But we're hopeful that we can perform. And the nice thing is like, if we are doing it and performers have to be masked because we're indoors, it kind of works within the, like the design of the world is really specific because--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--they're paintings so like I could see a designer creating... and the eight characters have to play 16 different families.
Nicole Zimmerer:Mm-hm.
Adrienne Dawes:So like skin tone changes in the paintings anyway, so like, I feel like a very motivated designer, could figure out some really cool ways to keep the performers safe, keep the audience safe, and we could still do the play, but... That in long is what's up next.[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:I have to be honest, like, I am not looking forward to all of the plays that are gonna come out in the next 10 years about the pandemic with like, the actors having like masks as costumes, but um, that made me excited.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:I know it's not like a pandemic play, but like--
Adrienne Dawes:No, not at all.[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:--I think that's like a perfect example of like, how to combine the truth of our reality right now with art. I think that's a perfect solution. You just have to find the right designer. And I have no doubt that you will.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:So.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, we have, we're working, I mean, because the project, the project was gonna premiere this November, and then the museum is the one who had pushed it back. This is pre-pandemia. So they were-- just, museums run on a much slower schedule than theatre does.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:And they have to borrow stuff from all over the world and they're bringing in real castas. We won't be in the same room as them, but we'll be right next door, which is still exciting. And so when that got pushed back, it's like, you know, some of the actors moved from Austin, it's mostly an Austin-based cast, this is Salvage Vanguard Theater in Austin, who I've worked with a lot. They premiered two of my plays thus far, so this would be number three. And um, yeah! So we'll kind of have to like, you know, shuffle things around, but I'm hoping, we have a really, the designer we have, the costume designer and set designer we've been working with are both really phenomenal and do kind of more historical, like our costume designer does like historical, um, what's it called? reproductions of stuff for museums, so like, she's like kind of perfect for a project that's like, so history based, so...
Nicole Zimmerer:That's amazing.
Adrienne Dawes:Hopefully, we'll still keep her. [Laughs] Hopefully she won't move in the next year!
Nicole Zimmerer:Wow.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, yeah, but we've definitely got some some funds to play with, so hopefully, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Related but also unrelated. Do you think Austin is still weird?
Adrienne Dawes:[Groans, laughs] Uh, that noise means... [sigh] Honestly, I should say, I don't know. Because I haven't lived there... Last time I live there was 2016. Like, lived there. I've visited a couple times.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:I feel, like for me, I don't see a future with me in Austin. The only exception is like to take care of family or like if I had to go back for family I would. But I think um--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--if you're gonna spend that kind of money you might as well go to LA or New York or Chicago or anywhere else like. There are really still some great people there, I think if you're an artist, it used to be, and I know everyone says this but like it used to be, you, as a young person could move there, like have your day job, start up a theatre company, or film your film, or be in a band, or whatever your artistic thing was, and still like have like a nice life, you know what I mean? You could afford housing you could... you could do your thing! And...
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:And it feels like now, at least the friends of mine that are still there, I don't have a whole lot of friends that are like early-20s, but like the ones that are there, it just seems like it's a much more, much more of a struggle. It's much more expensive, the resources are spread even more thin, so...
Nicole Zimmerer:Mm-hm.
Adrienne Dawes:I wish I could say like, "Yeah, still consider Austin on your list," but like, I feel like a lot of people are going to like Nashville and like actually Northwest Arkansas, weirdly enough. If you can handle Walmart country, there is a lot of funding for the arts here.
Nicole Zimmerer:Wow!
Adrienne Dawes:Like then you're in Arkansas. So you do need to think about that. Yeah, you just need to think about the politics. I mean, like the politics here are... so crazy. Every day I'm like...
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:We're not like as bad as Florida but like--
Nicole Zimmerer:No!
Adrienne Dawes:--but like Texas isn't great either. [Laughs] I mean, I read all these things about Texas and I'm like, "This is why, this is why I don't want my final, like, landing spot to be Texas." I've lived there so long and I love it--
Nicole Zimmerer:Right, exactly.
Adrienne Dawes:--I'll always be a Texan, you probably feel the same way, like--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--you'll always be a Texan,--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--but do you always want to live in Texas?
Nicole Zimmerer:No, no, I mean, um...
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:It's a joke that the two disabled politicians I know the most about are FDR and Greg Abbott. And I'm like, "Talk about range!" Talk about range.
Adrienne Dawes:Wow, I didn't know! Wow, Abbott, really?
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah, Greg Abbott is in a wheelchair.
Adrienne Dawes:Wow!
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah, you probably didn't know that because, um, well, when they take photos of him, he's always like, behind something, like a desk, or they crop the photo--
Adrienne Dawes:Wow.
Nicole Zimmerer:--from the waist up. So it's like sneaky-wheelchair a little bit. Like...
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:"He's like a regular old Joe!" but like, you don't, you don't see the wheelchair, you know what I mean?
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Um, it's all about like, optics and stuff. So.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:But, um, anyway!
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:No, I love Texas so much because of the food and the people and like, southern hospitality is a thing.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah. Yes.
Nicole Zimmerer:And like, honestly, it's not just because of the politics. It's also because I realized that my community of artists who I want to make art with aren't in Texas.
Adrienne Dawes:Hmm, yeah, that's a big one too.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah. Yeah.'Cause, you know, my entire family is in Houston. And I do like being near them...
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:I love them very much, they drive me wild--
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:--but the people I want to make art with aren't here. So.
Adrienne Dawes:Hmm. Yeah, no that's fair.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:They'll always be there for you too. And Houston is a great-- I've spent like a little bit of time there for art stuff and, and to see Beyonce of course.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yes.
Adrienne Dawes:Um, but uh--
Nicole Zimmerer:In her natural habitat.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] Yeah, I had to see her, exactly, that's why we made the drive, we were like "We have to see her in her natural habitat." But yeah, I mean, and I feel the same way about Austin too. It's like, it's always gonna be there, you know I mean? And so like, it's just like, now's the time to like, you know, go and explore other things and like, as a backup plan it's not even a bad one. It's just like, there are more exciting things, I think.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:More challenging things for me out there. And Austin's like the--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--backup plan, you know, if stuff falls through.
Nicole Zimmerer:I have one last question.
Adrienne Dawes:Yes.
Nicole Zimmerer:How does your family feel about your art?
Adrienne Dawes:Hmmm!
Nicole Zimmerer:Do they know about, you know, Hairy and Sherri?
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] They do... My mother does-- You know what's so cool? I love this question 'cause like, one thing I've always wanted to do is like, write something that my sisters could see, because my sisters don't, for a lot of reasons my sisters... my sister Robin in particular, my sister Allie has come and seen shows. But my sister Robin, who I'm like probably the closest to, who has like specific language and we connect over music and stuff. Like, I've been thinking about, like, what would be a show that she would like? And she loves music and she's learned to speak through music. And I guess intellectually, like, she's on a level of more like a small child, like she watches like Barney and things have to be very colorful, and... kind of sing-song storytelling. And so I have thought about like, just that question of like, "Could I write something that she could enjoy?" Because that would be so cool. That would be so cool. If I could write something.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:And I think that there is like, not that this would be baby theatre, but there is like a youth theatre thing of like these like very, these experiences that are more about color and sound than like, your traditional, like, "Two characters doing something." So I think that'd be really interesting. I'm just thinking about my sister Robin as an audience member. My mom has lots of opinions [laughs] about Hairy and Sherri. It's hilarious.'Cause you have to keep in mind that like, her background is an early-childhood-- working with children with disabilities for years. Then she was a rehabilitative foster home mom, and also training other families who are taking in kids that have special needs. So like, her background has pretty much been like working with disabled children forever.
Nicole Zimmerer:Mm-hm.
Adrienne Dawes:And so when I gave her-- actually what I did is I gave her that first scene of Hairy and Sherri where the parents are like shopping for a kid, which is like very over the top, but like, also, you can do that, like any of us can right now go and Google and see children that are available for adoption. You can see their faces, you can see their names, like it's kind of this weird thing. And so I sent her the scene and I just, I didn't tell her anything about the play. I just was like, "Hey, this--" like, "I wrote this scene about` these two parents who are thinking about adopting. Just like, tell me your opinion, what you think of this," and she wrote me the longest text message [laughs] I have ever seen in my life! She was so angry. She-- it was like they were real. And that was like, I was kind of like, "Oh, I've done something right." [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah! Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Because she was so mad. She was like, "This is a red flag. And this! And no one would ever do this! And blah-blah blah-blah blah. And the way they're talking about children blah-blah blah-blah blah." She just like, lost her goddamn mind. And um, and then it was funny too, because she was like, "Well why don't you write a happy story about adoption?" Like you know, my story is not like, the super-- well, I shouldn't say it's not super traumatic but like, I have a different story of adoption that definitely has trauma in it, but is not like your"Lifetime Television for women" kind of thing.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Like, actually I have more trauma from my birth mother than I do like the system or these other stories that we've had. And, all right, we'll do a podcast about that another day. But like--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Her, her-- she had such a vishual like--"vishual" that's not the word[laughs] Visceral! [Laughs] She had such a visceral reaction to just that scene, it told me I was doing something right.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Even though she would prefer, but like, her-- you know, I love my mom-- Mom, I love you. But like she loves procedural like television. She loves like a really clear like, cute little ending. So like, our television interests, we can't watch TV together because I want to watch really dark...
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:You know, I want a story, I want all the things. And she's just like "I need, I need it to always be the same every time." [Laughs] Like Starbucks.
Nicole Zimmerer:[Laughs] Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:She just needed to be like-- and it's comfort. I mean, imagine like--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--her life is all day, every day on her feet, she's never slept through the night for 30 years--
Nicole Zimmerer:Oh, jeez!
Adrienne Dawes:--because of all the needs. She's the primary caretaker of multiple people, multiple now adults with special needs. She has some help during the day, but that's not always reliable. We don't have money. We can't like pay people, you know, what would actually be worth to like, you know, do a good job. So like, I think at the end of the day, she wants a glass of wine and to like watch a murder mystery that wraps up in 30 minutes, you know, so--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Artistically[laughs] I'm not writing that! But my family is super, super supportive-- I mean like, at least I grew up with parents who-- and my dad is this way too, I haven't talked about my dad, but like they both just sort of like knew I was a writer, knew I was an artist. I was very shy, and so it was a way for me to express myself and so they, they've always been, I lucked out, they've always been really, really supportive. So.
Nicole Zimmerer:That's great.
Adrienne Dawes:You know.
Nicole Zimmerer:That's great.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, lucked out. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:I also... I think about my mom when I'm writing.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:My thesis... it was like, I don't care if anybody likes it, I know my mom's gonna enjoy it.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:So that's good enough for me.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah! I should think about writing something for her, that she would actually like. Because I think my stuff is just too dark. It's too dark for her. She wants--
Nicole Zimmerer:A murder mystery that wraps up in 30 minutes!
Adrienne Dawes:Mm-hm! Like a strong sassy woman--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--who's like, in her like... you know, a middle-aged woman... it's basically her! [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah!
Adrienne Dawes:She wants to see her solve a mystery, you know? And I get that.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] Psychologically, I understand it.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah!
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:She should watch a lot of like, British crime dramas. I think she would like that a lot.
Adrienne Dawes:I wish!
Nicole Zimmerer:Broadchurch.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, I think, I don't, I have to talk to her about what she is watching right now. I feel like she would like that a lot. I don't even know honestly, I don't-- to God, I don't even know that-- like, the show-- I wanted her to watch Catastrophe because I thought"Oh, this is like a fun, kind of like sexy show." But like, I don't think she interested... she was like humoring me to watch it.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Because I was like, "The writing's really good. And like, they're funny, and like they're real and I like this relationship..." And she's just like, "Yeah, I can see why you..." [laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:[Laughs]
Adrienne Dawes:"I can see why that's your kind of thing." You know? How your parents humor you?
Nicole Zimmerer:Hearing, hearing you talk about her preferences, does she watch, like, NCIS, NCIS-LA?
Adrienne Dawes:Yes. Oh, yeah!
Nicole Zimmerer:She-- yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Hawaii, all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yep. Yeah. My mom, my mom was like that, too and then, and then she found like the same thing but with books. So she likes to read more than she like to watch TV.
Adrienne Dawes:Ooh, nice.
Nicole Zimmerer:She's--
Adrienne Dawes:Oh, that's good!
Nicole Zimmerer:It's the same thing, it's the same content, different mediums. Different mediums.
Adrienne Dawes:Just in a book. Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah. And I swear to God--
Adrienne Dawes:That's so cool...
Nicole Zimmerer:--those authors make her laugh more than I do, and it's a point of like, it's an issue for me! I'm like--
Adrienne Dawes:It's insulting![Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:"Ma'am!"
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] Yeah! Yeah. No, it's been a weird shift getting older because like I, what I'd love more-- what I'd love to do is like just like snuggle up on the couch with a cup of tea with my mom and, and watch some really dark, gruesome shows. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:[Laughs]
Adrienne Dawes:And what my mom wants to do is like... not that. And the show she wants to watch, I literally, I've tried, Nicole. A couple times I've been like,"I'm just gonna soldier through, drink a glass of wine with her and like, try to make it through an episode." And I'm on my phone. I can't--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:--pay attention.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah. I mean, you have to understand that like, it's a machine.
Adrienne Dawes:Yes.
Nicole Zimmerer:Like the beats are already set out and like--
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:That's the reason like, SVU has lasted 25-some odd--
Adrienne Dawes:Yes.
Nicole Zimmerer:--20,000-some-odd years?
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:It's never gonna... It is a comfort show.
Adrienne Dawes:Yes. Yes.
Nicole Zimmerer:Is it about cops? Yes. Is that problematic? Yes.
Adrienne Dawes:Yes.
Nicole Zimmerer:But it's comfort.
Adrienne Dawes:Yes.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:You know what you're gonna get every time. If you miss an episode, doesn't matter. You know, so--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah, I get, I get that. But I'm in for like a relationship. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:I want relationship with these characters for a long time. Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Speaking of shows, and TV and things, I think this is a perfect segue to a surprise segment of ACCESSible HOLLYWOOD. ACCESS-ible Hollywood!
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Um, I hope I emphasized the right sy-LA-ble for that.
Adrienne Dawes:That was great.
Nicole Zimmerer:Thank you!
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Thank you.
Adrienne Dawes:That was great.
Nicole Zimmerer:But uh, it was recently annouced that Judy Huemann's book, Being Huemann... um, and for those of you who've been listening, I mention Judy like every-other episode, because I love that woman. She's like the godmother of disability rights. She was a big part of the 504 strikes that led to the ADA being passed, and she's just an amazing human being. Anyway, her memoir has been optioned to be a movie and Ali Stroker, aka, the Tony Award winner Ali Stroker is attached to play her in the movie. Which is really funny because Ali Stroker has played Judy Heumann before in an episode of Drunk History. So this new movie that's coming out is part of the Drunk History cinematic universe.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:And I'm very excited.
Adrienne Dawes:That's incredible.
Nicole Zimmerer:Adrienne, have you seen Crip Camp? Please tell me you have.
Adrienne Dawes:Yes! Yes, yes, yes.
Nicole Zimmerer:Okay. [Gasp]
Adrienne Dawes:Of course. Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Oh--
Adrienne Dawes:It's fantastic.
Nicole Zimmerer:You are like...
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:It's so--
Adrienne Dawes:It's so incredible.
Nicole Zimmerer:It's so good! We always talk about Crip Camp on this podcast.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:We've become obsessed with it...
Adrienne Dawes:It's so incredible. Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:I have to mention it every episode. Every episode, we're mentioning Crip Camp. Drink whenever Nicole mentions Crip Camp...
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Because Crip Camp is a-ma-zing.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:So that was my Crip Camp plug for this episode.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Stay tuned for next time where I bring it up again, and again.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] With someone else. [Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:With somebody else. And I'm so, I'm so happy that you've seen it. It's amazing. It's incredible.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Every time I mention it, I either get a "Yes" or get a blank stare.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs]
Nicole Zimmerer:Adrienne, before we go, where can the people find you on the interwebs?
Adrienne Dawes:Yes, I have a website, AdrienneDawes.com. I'm also on social media way too much as HeckleHer. So like Instagram, Twitter, I even have a TikTok, but I really don't update it... But yeah, Heckle Her used to be the-- I used to like have an independent like production company, just basically me putting on my own work. And so I called it Heckle Her and then that's just been my--
Nicole Zimmerer:Okay.
Adrienne Dawes:--my name on social media.
Nicole Zimmerer:That was my question. I was like...
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] Yeah, people always like, "Why would you say heckle her? Heckling is bad!" But, uh, I don't know, I like the alliteration, and I like the like, kind of confrontation it asks of the audience of like--
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:"Oh, there's a girl on stage, trying to be funny." And it's like, "No, we are funny!" [Laughs] "Come for me!"
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah.
Adrienne Dawes:You know what I mean? So yeah, it just kind of stuck.
Nicole Zimmerer:So, HeckleHer.
Adrienne Dawes:Yes.
Nicole Zimmerer:On Instagram...
Adrienne Dawes:Twitter.
Nicole Zimmerer:TikTok and Twitter.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah. And then AdrienneDawes.com.
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:Great. Well, Adrienne, this was great. It's so lovely to see you--
Adrienne Dawes:Yes.
Nicole Zimmerer:--and to talk to you.
Adrienne Dawes:You too.
Nicole Zimmerer:I always feel like our conversations are so well, fulfilling for me!
Adrienne Dawes:Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer:But also like--
Adrienne Dawes:Same!
Nicole Zimmerer:--opens, you know, the portal to my brain a little bit.
Adrienne Dawes:[Laughs] Thank you.
Nicole Zimmerer:Yeah. Thank you for listening to this episode of Break A Leg! And thank you to our guest, Adrienne, for joining us today. Follow us on Instagram and Twitter @breakalegpod, that's break a leg, P-O-D. Let us know what you thought of the episode or tell us who you think we should have on next. For a full transcript of each episode, use the link in the episode description. The easiest way to support this show is by leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts. And make sure to click that Subscribe button! Break A Leg! is produced by Scott MacDonald, and our cover art was created by Sasha and Alexander Schwartz. I'm Nicole Zimmerer and I will see you next time.
